Craps Vs Crapless Craps

23 min readJan 26, 2021

Crapless craps (a.k.a. Crapsless craps, and sometimes called “never ever craps” or “ruse craps”) is a variation of the standard game where the player cannot lose on the come-out roll because there are no craps rolls. (Remember from our other articles, a “craps” is a roll of 2, 3, or 12 on the come-out roll.

Re: How do YOU handle Crapless Craps? Post by wild child » Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:47 pm Operator wrote: One other piece of advice I may make here is although you have to pay the vig up front when your stuck at a cold crapless table is to lay the point if it is a 5 6 8 9 I would not lay any other numbers. The biggest problem with crapless craps is that its pass line bet carries a 5.38% house edge. This is really bad in comparison to a regular pass line wager, which has a 1.41% house edge. If your primary goal is to win, then you need to avoid crapless craps. Why does crapless craps give you such a poor chance of winning?

waterandice

Just wanted to say that my city has a crapless craps table. I’m not sure why they decided to switch but I’m guessing it’s because of a bigger ‘house advantage.’ In my opinion there is one aspect about crapless craps that could offer an advantage to a consistent shooter though and that is the ability to put place bets on every single number. This is advantageous IMO since you don’t have to make what I call ‘extra bets’ like you do in regular craps to cover every single number. For example, in a regular craps game; you could have place bets on the 5, 6, and 8.. but you would have to then make a field, horn bet, etc.. in order to cover the rest of the numbers. The problem with this is that for example if you’re betting the field along with the 5, 6, 8.. you’ll have to subtract the field from your winnings every time you roll a 5, 6, or 8. In crapless craps though, you could just cover every single number and you’re guaranteed what I call a ‘pure win’ as long as you don’t roll a 7. So, I was just thinking what if I just put $5 on the pass and cover every single number after a point is established? Aren’t you guaranteed a win no matter what just as long as you don’t roll a 7 after you do this? You wouldn’t have to make a field bet or horn or whatever in order to cover every number either since you would be putting up a place bet for every single number out on the table. Isn’t this advantageous in and of itself?
This is the way that I figure it if my math is correct. Assuming you’re the shooter if you’re playing at a $5 minimum table, you put $5 on the pass line and then minimum bets on all of the numbers 2 through 12 would be a total of $49 correct? Obviously it depends on what point is established too but I’m just talking hypothetically here of course or theoretically. So, I guess my ultimate question is what if you just cover every single number and then roll once or twice after a point is established? Just as long as you don’t roll a 7 during any of those 1–2 throws, you would profit every time, correct? What if you just took all of your place bets down after hitting any number other than 7 twice? Wouldn’t this be a viable way of betting? You could also do something like increase the place bets to 6 times the minimum bets on every number would be a total of I think $264 out on the table at one time but as long as you don’t roll a 7 the first roll then you’re guaranteed to win at least $42 every throw just as long as you don’t seven out, right? (Hopefully my math is correct) So I was thinking that you could just win $42 once, take all of your place bets down, and now you basically have enough in winnings to basically cover every single number. You’re only $2 short actually assuming you still have your $5 pass up. What if you did this and then just used the $42 give or take win to just simply put up this amount of money for one or 2 rolls every time each new roll if that makes sense. Wouldn’t you technically profit every single roll just as long as you don’t seven out within the 2 rolls? Then after you hit 2 numbers, you just take all of your place bets down and roll until you seven out or hit the point number. Would this be viable in your opinion? If anyone is confused, the strategy I’m referring to is to make 2 wins and then take down all of your bets afterwards in order to capitalize on your profits. So, for example, you have every number covered after you establish a point. Let’s say the point is 12, you then roll a 4 and 3 afterwards. The 4 and 3 are going to pay pure payouts on those 2 numbers, then afterwards you just collect your profit and take down all of your bets that way you don’t risk losing everything out on the table. This is also of course assuming that every time I get up to roll the dice that I don’t seven out 2 rolls after a point is established. I say this because I don’t know how many times I’ve gotten up to roll ( I set the dice) and went at least 5 times without a 7 coming up. You’re probably going to roll out the math on this one and give me the mathematics in the long run, and yeah I get it.. blah blah blah, same old cliché Wizard of Odds mumbo jumbo.. I get it..alls I’m saying is that with a consistent shooter, I think we’d have an advantage. I figured this with a $300 bankroll too. With a total of $264 out on the table, you wouldn’t be doing this consistently, this would only be used to win $42-$44, and then use the profits to just then play on with minimum place bets if that makes sense. And yeah I get it that if you spend 2 hours to make $300 just to then make that $264 bet the next day or whatever and happen to lose it. On the first roll though, that doesn’t happen to me often at all. I plan on getting a second job that would allow me to make an extra $300-$600 a month and then use this strategy. I think it would be hard for me to lose technically. If I won let’s say $800 in profit, even with a $300 loss I’m still up $500 obviously. I just think it could be viable in the long run as long as you’re consistent with your dice setting even if you don’t believe in it. Which I highly doubt you do, but I’m just saying. Also, before you give me the typical ‘What if this.. what if that..if if if this and that speech.. ‘If’ a million dollars showed up on my front porch, I’d be a millionaire’ mumbo jumbo.. just save yourself the time and effort of saying all of that because trust me I get it. I realize that the dice can bounce off of the wall in any combination. I don’t need that kind of talk honestly.

Ace2

You could also make roulette bets on both black and red. You have all the colors covered so it’s impossible lose money..unless a zero or double zero comes up on the next spin.

SOOPOO

Just wanted to say that my city has a crapless craps table. I’m not sure why they decided to switch but I’m guessing it’s because of a bigger ‘house advantage.’ In my opinion there is one aspect about crapless craps that could offer an advantage to a consistent shooter though and that is the ability to put place bets on every single number. This is advantageous IMO since you don’t have to make what I call ‘extra bets’ like you do in regular craps to cover every single number. Bars inside crown casino melbourne. For example, in a regular craps game; you could have place bets on the 5, 6, and 8.. but you would have to then make a field, horn bet, etc.. in order to cover the rest of the numbers. The problem with this is that for example if you’re betting the field along with the 5, 6, 8.. you’ll have to subtract the field from your winnings every time you roll a 5, 6, or 8. In crapless craps though, you could just cover every single number and you’re guaranteed what I call a ‘pure win’ as long as you don’t roll a 7. So, I was just thinking what if I just put $5 on the pass and cover every single number after a point is established? Aren’t you guaranteed a win no matter what just as long as you don’t roll a 7 after you do this? You wouldn’t have to make a field bet or horn or whatever in order to cover every number either since you would be putting up a place bet for every single number out on the table. Isn’t this advantageous in and of itself?
This is the way that I figure it if my math is correct. Assuming you’re the shooter if you’re playing at a $5 minimum table, you put $5 on the pass line and then minimum bets on all of the numbers 2 through 12 would be a total of $49 correct? Obviously it depends on what point is established too but I’m just talking hypothetically here of course or theoretically. So, I guess my ultimate question is what if you just cover every single number and then roll once or twice after a point is established? Just as long as you don’t roll a 7 during any of those 1–2 throws, you would profit every time, correct? What if you just took all of your place bets down after hitting any number other than 7 twice? Wouldn’t this be a viable way of betting? You could also do something like increase the place bets to 6 times the minimum bets on every number would be a total of I think $264 out on the table at one time but as long as you don’t roll a 7 the first roll then you’re guaranteed to win at least $42 every throw just as long as you don’t seven out, right? (Hopefully my math is correct) So I was thinking that you could just win $42 once, take all of your place bets down, and now you basically have enough in winnings to basically cover every single number. You’re only $2 short actually assuming you still have your $5 pass up. What if you did this and then just used the $42 give or take win to just simply put up this amount of money for one or 2 rolls every time each new roll if that makes sense. Wouldn’t you technically profit every single roll just as long as you don’t seven out within the 2 rolls? Then after you hit 2 numbers, you just take all of your place bets down and roll until you seven out or hit the point number. Would this be viable in your opinion? If anyone is confused, the strategy I’m referring to is to make 2 wins and then take down all of your bets afterwards in order to capitalize on your profits. So, for example, you have every number covered after you establish a point. Let’s say the point is 12, you then roll a 4 and 3 afterwards. The 4 and 3 are going to pay pure payouts on those 2 numbers, then afterwards you just collect your profit and take down all of your bets that way you don’t risk losing everything out on the table. This is also of course assuming that every time I get up to roll the dice that I don’t seven out 2 rolls after a point is established. I say this because I don’t know how many times I’ve gotten up to roll ( I set the dice) and went at least 5 times without a 7 coming up. You’re probably going to roll out the math on this one and give me the mathematics in the long run, and yeah I get it.. blah blah blah, same old cliché Wizard of Odds mumbo jumbo.. I get it..alls I’m saying is that with a consistent shooter, I think we’d have an advantage. I figured this with a $300 bankroll too. With a total of $264 out on the table, you wouldn’t be doing this consistently, this would only be used to win $42-$44, and then use the profits to just then play on with minimum place bets if that makes sense. And yeah I get it that if you spend 2 hours to make $300 just to then make that $264 bet the next day or whatever and happen to lose it. On the first roll though, that doesn’t happen to me often at all. I plan on getting a second job that would allow me to make an extra $300-$600 a month and then use this strategy. I think it would be hard for me to lose technically. If I won let’s say $800 in profit, even with a $300 loss I’m still up $500 obviously. I just think it could be viable in the long run as long as you’re consistent with your dice setting even if you don’t believe in it. Which I highly doubt you do, but I’m just saying. Also, before you give me the typical ‘What if this.. what if that..if if if this and that speech.. ‘If’ a million dollars showed up on my front porch, I’d be a millionaire’ mumbo jumbo.. just save yourself the time and effort of saying all of that because trust me I get it. I realize that the dice can bounce off of the wall in any combination. I don’t need that kind of talk honestly.

I stopped reading once you said ‘as long as you don’t roll a 7'. EVERY shooter will on average roll a seven 1 in 6 rolls. There is NO SUCH THING as a ‘consistent shooter’.
Years ago on this very forum there was a guy who said he could roll fewer than the expected 1 out of 6. We bet. He paid me. There is no such thing as being able to set the dice in such a way that a legal roll gives you an advantage. Period. If you want to believe it go make the $300-$500 a month and report back to us.
Sorry to be so blunt.

FleaStiff

Sorry to be so blunt.

The bluntness is entirely appropriate, I am certain each of these ‘dice setters’ have already been informed rather bluntly. Its a matter of ‘true believers’ not wanting to hear an unpleasant truth.

waterandice

I don’t believe you read the entire post then. I’m not talking about 6 rolls here. At the most I am talking about 2 . I’m not here to argue about dice control or consistency either. That’s a whole different ball game. Maybe next time you need to learn how to not stop reading someone’s post until you understand the entire point to what they’re saying. If I was going to bet money on anything it’s that you probably didn’t even comprehend what I was even saying within the entire post. That’s honestly just ignorant but I understand where you’re coming from though. You probably just chalked it off of the board instantly like you do with any other strategy that anyone would post on here. You seem like the type that would / will dismiss 99.9% of ‘strategies’ to begin with so I honestly don’t even know why I’m bothering to waste my time replying to someone like you. It’s probably just not even worth my time since you don’t even have the decency to try and articulate someone’s entire thought process, yet, here I am replying to you anyway. You’re not the type of person I targeted this post towards anyways. I don’t know why I’m asking this but I sincerely hope that you go back and read the entire post with an absolute open mind. Thanks.. like I said, probably just wasting my time..It also might be partly my fault explaining my post simply because it’s easier to explain what I mean to someone in person rather than having to use words over the internet.

7craps

In my opinion there is one aspect about crapless craps that could offer an advantage to a consistent shooter though and that is the ability to put place bets on every single number.

Quote: waterandice

This is advantageous IMO since you don’t have to make what I call ‘extra bets’ like you do in regular craps to cover every single number.

In crapless craps though, you could just cover every single number and you’re guaranteed what I call a ‘pure win’ as long as you don’t roll a 7.

Joc poker ca la aparate american poker 2

no
the chance of a 7 on any 1 roll is 6/36 or about 16.67%
round that to 17%
so 17 times out of 100, on average, you lose, $52 each time, a total loss = $884
(for simplicity — place all the #s after a point is established to AVOID that high pass line house edge. There is NO PROOF anyone can change the dice roll probability by following the house rules. BOTH dice hit that back wall)
IF you could WIN $10 on every place bet win
(the inside #s -5,6,8,9- ruin that thought, and we KNOW those NEVER roll)
you win $830 for a
net LOSS (done 100 times) of ONLY $54 over 100 rolls.
‘back to the drawing board’
no

winsome johnny (not Win some johnny)

waterandice

You could also make roulette bets on both black and red. You have all the colors covered so it’s impossible lose money..unless a zero or double zero comes up on the next spin.

Totally unrelated. We are talking about crapless craps, not roulette. Did you even bother to consider my entire thought process? If you think it isn’t viable then all you have to say is that you don’t think that it’s viable. Simple as that. No need to bring sarcastic remarks into this. If that’s the case, then it makes me wonder why you’re even on this site and what you do to gamble since you’re so ‘perfect’ in all. Look, I’m not trying to argue. It’s simple really. I posted a thread. People come to this site to read threads like mine. All I’m asking is whether or not people think this is viable or not. It’s really not all that hard.
Making comments like this..
‘You could also make roulette bets on both black and red. You have all the colors covered so it’s impossible lose money..unless a zero or double zero comes up on the next spin.’
Is pretty useless honestly and doesn’t solve anything.

SOOPOO

You seem like a nice guy. Confronted with a few naysayers you kept your cool.
The concept you need to understand is simple.
‘No combination of negative EV bets will ever be positive EV’.
All the bets you describe are negative EV. if you can show a single positive EV bet (you didn’t) then you could be on to something.
In BJ, depending on the ‘count’ there are periodically positive EV bets available.
On slots, depending on must hit jackpots, or special symbols left over from a previous player, there are occasionaly positive EV bets available.
On video poker (Ultimate X) there are occasionaly multipliers left over from a previous player that make your game positive EV.
In 3 card poker, and other card games as well, if you are able to see the dealer’s hole card, that will make the game positive EV for you.
Sadly, craps, and crapless craps never have a positive EV bet. The only way to make craps positive EV is if you find a casino that ‘overcomps’ you for your play. The base game will still be negative EV.
I’ll repeat. No combination of negative EV bets will ever be positive EV.

waterandice

Ok, so you don’t think it’s viable then? Thanks but you’re not speaking my language at all. Speak English. I would appreciate it that you could at least show that you understand what I’m even talking about first of all while also not bringing other table games into the equation. Have a good day/night. Do you always speak to other people like they’re mentally retarded?
i.e.
You said, ‘the concept you need to understand is simple.’
No, sir, I need not to understand any ‘concepts,’ I just need people to tell me why it’s not viable or why it is.
Also, your reply was rather undetailed considering that you seem like you care a little, only up until a certain point though.
I feel like you have the most trolling comment ever set up in a well thought out disguise.
It is quite baffling to me too.

Ace2

Totally unrelated

Unrelated? Actually it’s the same exact concept as yours. This roulette strategy will work as long as zero/double zero don’t come up. Yours will work if seven isn’t rolled.

It’s all about making that GTA

Since the Stratosphere video came out, people have been asking ‘what is Crapless Craps’?

Before I begin, I will assume that the reader already understands and knows how to play craps, i.e, ‘traditional’ craps aka ‘craps’. If you do not know how to play craps, then forget crapless craps for a moment. Go binge watch all my YouTube videos, ask me some questions here on RoadGambler.com (I respond), and then come back for Crapless Craps.

Also, for the sake of clarity, anytime I mention the word ‘craps’ by itself, I am referring to the traditional game.

Let’s discuss Crapless Craps!

WHAT IS CRAPLESS CRAPS?

Crapless Craps is a variant of craps that plays exactly like traditional craps, but with the following rule change:

On the Come Out roll, 2, 3, 11, and 12 are not natural winners or losers, rather, they become the point.
If the 2 rolled on the Come Out in craps, the player would lose; but in Crapless Craps, if the Come Out roll is 2, then the 2 is the point. The player would then need to roll the 2 to win, and the 7 would lose.
If the 3 rolled on the Come Out in craps, the player would lose; but in Crapless Craps, if the Come Out roll is 3, then the 3 is the point. The player would then need to roll the 3 to win, and the 7 would lose.
If the 12 rolled on the Come Out in craps, the player would lose; but in Crapless Craps, if the Come Out roll is 12, then the 12 is the point. The player would then need to roll the 2 to win, and the 7 would lose.
If the 11 rolled on the Come Out in craps, the player would win; but in Crapless Craps, if the Come Out roll is 11, then the 11 is the point. The player would then need to roll the 11 to win, and the 7 would lose.

The 2, 3, 11, and 12 are now point numbers, referred to as the ‘extreme outside’ numbers.

One other difference is that there is no dark side betting in Crapless Craps; meaning there is no Don’t Pass or Don’t Come, and the player may not lay odds or bet against.

All other rules remain the exact same, meaning that on a come out roll, the 7 is a natural winner.

All differences between Crapless Craps and craps are from the above singular rule change.

This rule change also means that the pass line and come bets have a house edge of 5.382% (citation, Wizard of Odds) versus 1.41% for traditional craps.

I will now explain the differences that result from the rule change.

If a craps rule is not mentioned below, then the rule remains the same from traditional craps to Crapless craps. For example, place bets of 4, 5, 6, 8, 9, and 10 are not mentioned, thus those place bets are unchanged. Same goes for field bets, hardways 4, 6, 8, and 10 are not mentioned, those bets remain the same from traditional craps to Crapless Craps.

HOW CRAPLESS CRAPS IS PLAYED

Crapless Craps is played exactly like traditional craps, with the difference that when a 2, 3, 11, or 12 is rolled on the come out, the dealers will now mark the point of 2, 3, 11, or 12.

Witness the board, with the 2, 3, 11, and 12 as the ‘box’ numbers…

In the pic below, 12 is the point.

If the point is 2, 3, 11, or 12 the player may then take odds bets on those points. Odds bets on those points are subject to the same minimum and maximum as traditional craps. I have never been to a casino where the odds from craps were different from Crapless Craps. At the El Dorado casino in Shreveport, Louisiana, the craps tables and the Crapless Craps tables all have 100x odds. Discussion of the odds bets will follow.

In addition to taking odds on the 2, 3, 11, and 12, the player may also bet the 2, 3, 11, or 12. Discussion of the place bets will follow.

THE CRAPLESS CRAPS ODDS BET

If the point is 2, 3, 11, or 12, the player may take the following odds, subject to the table maximum.

Point is 2 or 12
Pay off for a win is 6–1, meaning for $100 bet, the player will win $600.
There are six ways to lose and only one way to roll a winner, thus 6–1.
For example, if point is 2 then the losing combinations are 1+6, 6+1, 2+5, 5+2, 3+4, and 4+3 (six ways), while the only possible winning combination is 1+1 (one way). The similar condition for the 12, in which the only winner is 6+6.
Point is 3 or 11
Pay off for a win is 3–1 meaning for $100 bet, the player will win $300.
There are six ways to lose and two ways to roll a winner, thus 6–2, i.e., 3–1.
For example, if point is 3 then the losing combinations are 1+6, 6+1, 2+5, 5+2, 3+4, and 4+3 (six ways), while the only possible winning combinations are 1+2 and 2+1 (two ways). The similar condition for the 11, in which the winning combinations are 5+6 and 6+5.

Craps Vs Crapless Craps Practice

Similar to craps, the player may also take the same odds bets on the come bet if the 2, 3, 11, or 12 rolls.

The odds bet pays true odds. The only caveat is that the player must make a pass line or come bet to take advantage of the odds bet.

Craps Vs Crapless Craps Game

THE CRAPLESS CRAPS PLACE BETS AND BUY BETS

The player may also make place bets on the 2, 3, 11, and 12.

Place bet of 2 or 12
Pay off for a win is 11–2, meaning for $100 bet, the player will win $550.
The house edge with the place bet of 2 or 12 is 7.143% (citation, Wizard of Odds)
Point is 3 or 11
Pay off for a win is 11–4 meaning for $100 bet, the player will win $275.
The house edge with the place bet of 3 or 11 is 6.25%.

As a reminder, all other place bets in Crapless Craps are exactly the same as traditional craps.

Due to the high place house edge on the place bets, RoadGambler recommends avoiding place bets on the 2, 3, 11, 12.

The wiser way to play the 2, 3, 11, and 12, if the player would like ‘extreme outside’ action is to buy the 2, 3, 11, or 12. If the player buys the extreme outside numbers, the player must pay a 5% commission, but will then receive a true odds payout. Most casinos, according to my experience, charge commission as soon as the player makes the bet.

Craps Vs Crapless Craps Free

Buy bet of 2 or 12
Pay off for a win is 6–1, meaning for $100 bet, the player will win $600.
Commission is $5 for $100 bet. Thus the player will pay a net $595 versus $550 on a place bet of 2 or 12.
Thus, by risking an additional $5 upfront, the player will win an additional $45 net.
House edge on the typical ‘pay upfront’ scheme is 4.76% (citation, Wizard of Odds)
Point is 3 or 11
Pay off for a win is 3–1, meaning for $100 bet, the player will win $300.
Commission is $5 for $100 bet. Thus the player will pay a net $295 versus $275 on a place bet of 3 or 11.
Thus, by risking an additional $5 upfront, the player will win an additional $20 net.
House edge on the typical ‘pay upfront’ scheme is 4.76% (citation, Wizard of Odds)

RoadGambler advice: RoadGambler recommends that the player should avoid place bets on the 2, 3, 11, 12, and instead buy those numbers, if the player wants extreme outside action without pass line or come betting.

Craps Vs Crapless Craps Vs

FINAL ADVICE

Just avoid playing Crapless Craps. Seriously. I know that might not be the advice you want to hear, but that’s genuine and real advice. I’ve never been to a casino where the only craps option was Crapless Craps; every single casino that has Crapless Craps has traditional craps as the main option (if any reader knows of a casino that has only the Crapless Craps option, please let me know).

I love testing out carnival games and playing all sorts of weird casino games, and I play them out of curiosity. Sometimes, I’ll prefer the carnival variation of a game over the traditional game, such as Commission Free Pai Gow Poker. However, in a variant such as Commission Free Pai Gow Poker, the house edge is 2.51%, which is nearly identical to traditional Pai Gow Poker.

The disparity in the house edge for Crapless Craps and traditional craps is just too high. Giving up the 11 winner on a come out is just too much give up. On a point of 2, 3, and 12, even though the player might not lose his bet immediately, the long shot of repeating those points does not make up for the change of the 11 on the come out.

However, if you insist on playing Crapless Craps over traditional craps, here is some advice on how to play it effectively:

Make sure that the casino rates you higher than if you played traditional craps. Many casinos will rate you on the Crapless Craps pass line and come bets like you are playing traditional craps. For a traditional craps game, earned comp rates on pass line bets are very low because the house edge is low. The earned comp rate for Crapless Craps should be similar to roulette.
You can figure this out by playing regular craps and asking for your comp rate during your session play, and then when you move to the Crapless table, play for the same period of time, making the same bets, and asking for your comp rate. The Crapless comp rate should be significantly higher than traditional craps.
Play a high variance game based on hit and run. Hit and run has the advantage in that, while it will not change the house edge, it reduces the number of hands played. You cannot lose money while you are away from the table and walking around the casino.
Stick to the normal craps type bets, and try to ignore playing the extreme outside numbers unless the chance to bet the extreme outside number is through the odds bet. You will be tempted to place or buy the extreme outside, when the inevitable day comes that the extreme outside numbers are repeatedly rolling. Do not fall for the gambler’s fallacy.
Do not be afraid to take as much odds as you are comfortable with on the extreme outside numbers. The extreme outside odds bets pay true odds and this will significantly reduce the house edge.

I hope this Crapless Craps guide helped you understand the game. If you have any questions or comments, please feel free to leave them in the comments section below.

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